Thursday, July 27, 2006

The Middle East

The Inquisitor has some good links to articles on the Zionist terrorism campaign.

Remember folks, that the rise of militant Islam has nothing to do with the United States' support, over the last 40 years, for the Zionist the occupation of Palestine and parts of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. Nothing. Nothing at all. It's a complete coincidence. The current state of affairs has nothing to do with the fact that America has armed the folks who deprived the the Palestinians of their ancestral homes. A complete coincidence.


Dust I Am said...

"It's a complete coincidence." That's the excuse some of my children used to give for some situations where they didn't want to take responsiblity for their actions.

Terry said...

What follows is purely anecdotal.

What I find alarming is the number of Catholics on other blogs expressing sentiment that is nothing short of the dispensationalism spouted by fundamentalists who claim Catholicism is steeped in Babylonian and Roman paganism. Some flatly state we're commanded to support the secular State of Israel.

Then they go on to criticize the Holy Father's condemnation of the bombings, many of which are killing Maronites. Yet few acknowledge that.

Anonymous said...

Are you saying "the US ends support for the zionist state then militant islam dispppears?" Ya' think?!

Here's where I'm coming from. Hizbohalla has, for over 20 years, gotten away with mass murder (the following list doesn't include Israelis, numerous Lebanese Christian politicians who dared to question their terrorism, Herari, etc.).

* Bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia killing 19 U.S. servicemen (1996)
* Bombing of Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires killing 96 (1994)
* Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires killing 29 (1992)
* Abduction, torture and death of CIA Station Chief in Lebanon (1985)
* Hijacking of TWA Flight 847 killing one U.S. Navy diver (1985)
* Bombing outside U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut killing 24 (1984)
* Car bombing of U.S. Marine Barracks in Beirut killing 241 U.S. servicemen (1983)
*Car bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut killing 63 people, including 17 Americans (1983)
* Car bombing of French military barracks in Beirut killing 58 French paratroopers (1983)

The US never did anything to stop any of that. We are protected by our oceans, and 290,000,000 people (those killed weren't your sons) could accept such losses. The Israelis don't have that luxury.

I've been to KC. It's a long way from NYC. I was here on Feb 1993 when they bombed the WTC the first time. I was here on 9/11 when they got knocked it down. You see I have a different (too many funerals, too many American widows and orphans) perspective. They (19 mohammedan terrorists) killed 3,000 American civilians in two hours - that's targeting civilians and being disproportional! The gallant IDF in 14 days of heavy attacks on terrorist targets, where hizbohalla forces civilians to stay as shields, has regrettably killed about one-tenth as many as the rat sob's got on 9/11. Go figure!

I once believed that the European displaced persons should have come to America. Many didn't. Blame Harry T and the zionist cabal.

I once had concern for the Arab Christian - I now believe they should come to America where they can live free of mohammedan massacre (constant threat of) and harrassment. Although, those already here still seem to tremble at the mohammedan scum.

It seems for some of you that it's not that you love Jews less. It's that you love mohammedan terrorists more. I mean, it wouldn't be Christian to hate anyone. Right?

The enemy of my enemy is my ally. I was an anti-semite (the Jews should have come to the US; okay for the Palis to snipe at Isr. not ok for Isr. to shoot back, i.e., Isr. had no right to exist). Now, I hope Israel kills a sufficient number of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers (inlcuding the Lebs who sat by and allowed their country to be used to kill Joooos) that the hateful savages realize that Isr. is serious about the WAR and the filthy pagans never again have the stones even to look cross-eyed at an Israeli or an American. If the gallant IDF is successful at that, peace will have been achieved and that (jus in bellum) justifies the WAR.

The UN and Lebanese government have done nothing to stop 20 years of hizbohalla and Pali terror attacks on Israel. It may be that Lebanon is now paying for that deal with the devil.

M. Alexander said...

I have to agree in part with the last commentator. If the state of Israel had never been created (and I wish that it hadn't) the Muslims would still be trying to find a way to kill us. Remember the Crusades? I like to think of it as the first preemptive strike. We are infidels so they want to kill us. Very simple. It wasn't very long ago that we were working with Osama Bin Laden and funding his mujahadeen to fight the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Osama loved us then. We were all pally wally while he took our missles and our money. But when the Russians got beat he needed a new enemy. It was our turn. Read their own rhetoric- they will never accept a Jewish state and they will never accept a Christian state.

Curmudgeon said...

M. Alexander is all wet, and the prior commentator must be stoned (his litany of terrorism, for instance, includes mostly attacks on deployed soldiers and hostile government installations. Killing a bunch of deployed Marines or a CIA operative may be a heinous act of war, but if it's "terrorism," then the word has no meaning).

There's no question that the Islamic religion is false, evil and hostile. One can count the Christians in North Africa and prove that. The question is whether our support for the modern state of Israel, and our participation in the displacement of so many Palestinians from their homes, has had anything (everything) to do with awakening Islamic militancy that has arisen since the Second World War. But for that (and the icing on the cake: decades of exporting cultural filth from Hollywood), the imams and their friends who are so influential now wouldn't have had such a great cause to exploit and build their power from. But for our convenient entry into the fray, with the Zionists, they'd still be fighting amongst themselves.

And to compare our struggle, which has arisen from our imprudent and unjust support of modern Israel, with a "crusade," is absurd. It was neither undertaken, nor successful, in furtherance of the interests of Christendom.

Anonymous said...

Curmudgeon, please tell me somebody has hijacked your user ID. I'm with you 95% of the time, but on this one I have to differ. Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Arab citizens of Israel have more rights than citizens of neighboring countries. From the moment of their independence in 1948, Israel has been under attack from hostile Arab nations on all sides.

Whose ancestral home we are talking about can be debated until the cows come home. The fact of the matter is that the state of Israel was created under UN mandate, and that Islamic extremists refuse to recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation.

Your fondness for the term "Zionist" is troubling. Throughout the history of the past 50 years, Israel has been fighting for it's very existence. I for one do not think that support for a constitutional democracy fighting for its life is "imprudent and unjust." I truly hope the underpinnings of your disdain for the nation of Israel are more than anti-semitism.

(And NO, I am not a "Zionist," I am a Roman Catholic)

Anonymous said...

RIGHT ON, Curmudgeon!
Your last response was PURE GENIUS!
First of all, as Joe Sobran pointed out, was Palestine REALLY the ideal place for a Jewish homeland?
Second of all, Israel may be a democracy of sorts, what?!
Do you really, honestly think that a democracy (of ANY sort - even the 'best') has always been somehow immaculately conceived?
The old Soviet constitution had enshrined quite a lot of "rights" - but how was it ACTUALLY lived out?

And finally, Ms. Anonymous brought up the old "anti-s" word again.
I'm so sick of this I could hurl!
Why is it that any criticism of Israel at all AUTOMATICALLY indicates 'anti-semitism'. This is their - actually OUR greatest single weapon for shutting critics the hell up.
The more I get involved in this debate on the blogs, the more I feel impelled to come forth and defend people like curmudgeon.
Anonymous, I've written before on other blogs: I am half-Jew (well, since my mother was there are some that say I am a Jew), and a Roman Catholic, and I have suffered MORE for my Faith than EVER for my blood.
This anti-semite crap is just that- CRAP!
Now knock it off now that you have been disarmed.
Or I shall be forced to taunt you again.

Anonymous said...

OK, Lev:

1. Palestine the best place for a Jewish homeland? Where, pray tell, else would you put it? Fiji? Jews have just as legitimate a claim to that area (check your Old Testament...last I knew that was still part of the Christian bible, too) as Palestinians. I guess if we could just put those pesky Jews somewhere where they won't cause any trouble....

2. "A democracy, but so what?" This one is a head scratcher. I suppose the United States should side with North Korea and Iran because no democracy is perfect? And the "rights" in the old Soviet constitution were a fiction, just like their "right" to vote was.

Your statements are logic-deficient.

Now, for the "anti-s" issue, I'm as non-PC as they get, but how else to explain otherwise rational people's vitriolic, seething writings when it comes to Israel? Do any of you honestly believe that the Palestinians are completely innocent victims of "Zionist Occupation." Do Israelis strap bombs on their children and send them to kill as many innocent Palestinians as possible? You sound like conspiracy cranks that obsess about the Trilateral Commission and the Illuminati. If you truly see moral equivalence between Hezbollah, Hamas and the Israeli military, then I have no response. Such a position is so patently absurd it's like trying to prove to someone that the sky is blue.

Finally, I did not accuse anyone of anti-semitism. I said I hoped it was not the root cause of their beliefs. Lighten up...don't be so sensitive. :-)

Anonymous said...

This is going to be good.
Let's take it one by one.
1. To the first part, I'd say your evangelical tendencies are showing.
You know the only Jews who can't go to that precious little haven?
Messianic Jews. You know, the really religious ones?
Because they believe they have been displaced for their sins.
I tend to side with THAT side of my heritage.
And to the second part? Well, I never really thought of some of my people as needing a homeland. I always thought of myself as a North American - like my ancestors thought of themselves as Russians, etc.
We really have always had a problem, how shall I say? Assimilating. Probably why we've always been so mistrusted.
Not hated, minded you, but rather mistrusted. And feared.
2. N. Korea is a Communist state, Iran is run by an 'elected' dictator.
There are any number of different kinds of government in between these and our form.
History has shown that democracies (oh, and there have been democracies before, in case you did'nt know) always devolve into dictatorships.
You still buying this American Exceptionalism crap?
And I know the soviets did'nt have any rights. But you see, THEY did'nt know. Get it? They were TOLD they did, and, well, just sort of went along.
Sound familiar?
And finally,
See how you've been conditioned?
I think the whole place is a mess.
The big beggar is:
I'm simply asking common sense questions, and you're talking about conspiracies, and trilateral whatzamawhosits, and illiteral lattes, and...
what the hell are YOU going on about? You seem more hung up on presumptive attitudes than I do.

Hey, this is kind of fun, is'nt it?
It's all perfectly meaningless, of course.

Curmudgeon said...

Lev, you may refer to yourself here as a "semi-semite." (That's the little taunt my Jewish friend gives to my Protestant, but paternally-Jewish friend at the lunch table now and then).

Lev seems to have answered Anon above, in his own way, I'll give a little myself, since, after all, this is my blog (and knowingly repeating some of what Lev said).

Anon. says that Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East? I don't know how you define democracy, but however you define it, I don't buy it. I'm no democratic ideologue.

From "the moment of their independence in 1948?" They ain't some indigeonous people throwing off colonial rule; they moved there and occupied the land, less than 60 years ago.

"Whose ancestral home we are talking about can be debated until the cows come home." I'm not talking about someone's "ancestral home." We're talking about events in current memory--events of the last generation.

UN Mandate? Anyone who thinks that the UN's mandate on anything means a rat's ass, well....get ready for the police to kick down your door to enforce the UN Declaration on Rights of the Child, and send your daughter for a UN branded abortion.

My "fondness for the term 'Zionist' is troubling"? Zionism refers to the movement to establish a modern Jewish homeland in Palestine. What other word should I be using? I checked the dictionary and thesaurus. There's no synonym. Unless you're blinded by ideology, you can see I'm not talking about all Jews, or even exclusively Jews here; I'm talking about people who support the establishment, maintenance, and subsidy of the modern state of Israel (my Jewish friend mentioned above, BTW, is not a zionist; Pat Robertson is, as are many others--Catholics, Protestants, and Jews).

The Jewish Old Testament claim gives them as much right to Palestine as the people who lived there? C'mon. Then I've got evem more right to go to my own ancestral home in County Fermanaugh in the north of Ireland, forcefully assert my claim, cordon off or kill the Orangemen who live there now, and lob bombs into their homes and their heretical religious meeting places. After all, it was only 150 years ago that the Curmudgeons were starved out of Ireland, not 2000 years ago! Right?

Why are people so vitriolic when discussing Israel? Why do some Palestinians engage in such ruthless and inhumane tactics? Well, without defending their means and methods, but answering your question "why," it's because they are fighting for their homes. Most city-slicker Americans move around too much to appreciate the idea of a home, but that's what it's about. It's about a home. And a home is worth fighting for. A jet ski, or a nice new Audi A6, or a slick loft apartment isn't worth fighting for. All that's just stuff. But a real home is. When I see homes and farms condemned for stupid economic development projects, like Kelo,I wonder why Americans don't resort to armed defense of their homes. They would be justified. That's another post entirely, I know, but your can never question the motives (separate from the means) of someone who is fighting for his home.

And don't try to back off from the accusation of antisemitism. That clearly was an accusation of antisemitism, however phrased. "Joe Blow claims he's not a bigot" is, in effect, an accusation that Joe Blow is, in fact, a bigot.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, curmudgeon.
You answer far better than I.
I guess I'm just too vitriolic.

Hey, by the way, anonymous;
you seemed to imply a criticism of the GOVERNMENT of N. Korea.
I hope "the underpinnings of your disdain" are more than your 'obvious' anti-Asianism (or more specifically, your 'obvious' anti-Hangukism!)

Anonymous said...

Well, Curmudgeon...this has ceased to be useful dialog. I really think the anonymous poster who posted at 12:28 PM, July 28, 2006 put it better than I could, and I have no desire to type that much.

If you wish to throw your lot in with the people who cheered in the streets on 9/11, who have caused untold loss of INNOCENT life through their "understandable anger at losing their homes" and who preach religious war against all infidels, by all means do so. As for me, I'll stick with the people that have been steadfast allies and are fighting the same enemy as we. The Islamofascist terrorists are morally repugnant and disgusting, and if you think they'll stop with Israel, then your ignorance exceeds your condescension.


Curmudgeon said...

And good riddance.